keep "extra" components in Mambo?

[gsbe]

There is a trend in Mambo to stop including a component because a 3rd party has done it better. Polls and WebLinks are slated to be removed in future versions because PollsXT and Bookmarks are more extensive. Another likely factor in this decision is that they are available for free.

I would like to spark further discussion about this trend and related issues. I should initially reveal that I haven't completely bought into the perfect CMS idea, one without extra website features. I need to be convinced that there are too many roadblocks to doing it another way.

I recently had a client ask for a static page of external links rather than use the Weblinks or Bookmarks components. They said it was be faster for them to setup and maintain. I can extol the virtues of using the component for link tracking, categorization, whatever...but hey - who am I to question how they want to use their website? The point, although a bit obscured in my example, is that removing components that you don't want to use is easy.

My wish for Mambo is that it continue to deliver a full-featured and well-organized website upon installation. Mambo has chosen important features to include that most websites take advantage of. Removing pre-installed components steepens the Mambo learning curve.

If we must remove pre-installed components in future version of Mambo, users will demand a better way of finding these addons. Nothing against forges or portals or developer sites but addons are not easy to find or use. The web lives and dies by user experience.

Including a component in Mambo will not keep 3rd party developers from creating a better one. We are already at that crossroads! Is the only answer a full retreat from pre-installed components?

Projects releases like the recent MOSMedia Project present a similar question from a different angle. MMP addresses shortcomings of Mambo's core media handling and in doing so greatly extends Mambo's functionality. This is an obvious improvement over the existing media capabilities. Is there a process for integrating these type of upgrades into the Mambo core? I proposed an idea in another thread but I'm sure there is a better solution out there. What's yours?

[pixelsoul]

Well I can definitly understand why they want to remove the component's and i'm totally for it, because there are allot of users who don't need them.

If somebody does need them they can be installed seperatly, so the user would not have scripts on the server which he has no use to.

As far as the MultiMedia component, I would not really see this as a component but rather as an extension since, it directly impacts the way you can create content.

And yes it would be great if there was a possibilty to publish media files, in content with a default installation of Mambo

[mrabear]

I brought this up in another thread, but I agree that trimming down the number of default components is a good thing. If there is an existing community built around a superior product (PollXT being a good example), it does not make sense to maintain the original default component. With fewer peripheral modules and components to worry about, the Mambo core development team can actually focus on *gasp* core development ;-)

With regards to my MOSMedia component, which was correctly classified as an extension rather than a component, I would certainly entertain a discussion about making it a standard part of the Mambo core. There are both obvious and subtle implications to this, but I think it would bring enough community enrichment to warrant the discussion.

Since I am not on the Mambo development team, I do not know what their plans are for MOSImage and the content editor. I have not seen any indication that future releases are going to focus on the media capabilities that MOSMedia provides, so I am assuming that none are planned.

My guess is that MOSMedia community has not reached critical mass, and therefore has not attracted the attention of the Mambo development team. It will in due time though, as I have been getting a lot of very positive feedback from the growing user base.

[eyezberg]

What goes, what stays?
The problem is, everything not core is likely -has been the case often enough so far- to break when Mambo is updated and/or not be maintained/ updated itself. Core is core, what's in it is always current, so basic features, even if not for all websites, like polls, feeds, links should stay.
It's easier to unpublish something, than to
* find the correct site!!
* download CMT
* upload CMT
* publish CMT
* adjust settings
don't you think?

Leave'm in.

[gsbe]

Originally Posted by eyezberg

What goes, what stays?
The problem is, everything not core is likely -has been the case often enough so far- to break when Mambo is updated and/or not be maintained/ updated itself. Core is core, what's in it is always current, so basic features, even if not for all websites, like polls, feeds, links should stay.
It's easier to unpublish something, than to
* find the correct site!!
* download CMT
* upload CMT
* publish CMT
* adjust settings
don't you think?

Leave'm in.

eyezberg- this was what I was trying to say, too. Removing important features that most websites need effectively makes Mambo less user friendly. If this is the future of Mambo then we should be focusing on making it easier to find, compare and obtain addons.

[mrabear]

I was suggesting that it does not make sense to maintain a component that has a far superior and free replacement. It makes a lot more sense to incorporate that better component into the Mambo core distribution, thus making the upgrade process far easier for all parties involved. Mambo would not be well served to come installed bare bones, but it is also not any better to come shipped with barely adequate additions either.

Ideally, a component would gain enough of a following to just become 'adopted' into the standard Mambo distribution. Doing so would encourage more independent development, and will make Mambo much better 'out of the box'.

[gsbe]

agreed, mrabear. Why can't Mambo adopt these components with a clear upgrade path for "legacy" users rather than remove them? Obviously I don't mean today. I am simply suggesting that there should be a process in place for this type of metamorphosis.

I am again requesting additional solutions for this process. This process should not be limited to addons but also to extensions of Mambo core, as has been pointed out in this thread.

[mrabear]

Well, although I don't have a completely thought out process, I can think of some issues that would have to be resolved.

1. What if the developer of a particular component suddenly decides to quit and stop supporting their tool? I know that this risk exists with the core team as well, but I think it would be more prevalent as the development is distributed to various groups.

2. How would new releases be handled? Mambo does not have a strong enough development API to allow the core team to work independently of the peripheral teams, so there would need to be intense coordination.

3. Who determines the overall direction that particular core extensions take? If the core team is making global decisions for all of Mambo, should they be allowed to dictate the development plan for other 'downstream' projects?

These are just a couple of questions, and are by no means exhaustive. What we are proposing though would require a fundamental shift in the way that Mambo is developed. It would result in a gradual shift of power away from the core team and toward the broader development community. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it does open up a lot more questions in the process.

[brianteeman]

Originally Posted by mrabear

With regards to my MOSMedia component, which was correctly classified as an extension rather than a component, I would certainly entertain a discussion about making it a standard part of the Mambo core. There are both obvious and subtle implications to this, but I think it would bring enough community enrichment to warrant the discussion.

Since I am not on the Mambo development team, I do not know what their plans are for MOSImage and the content editor. I have not seen any indication that future releases are going to focus on the media capabilities that MOSMedia provides, so I am assuming that none are planned.

My guess is that MOSMedia community has not reached critical mass, and therefore has not attracted the attention of the Mambo development team. It will in due time though, as I have been getting a lot of very positive feedback from the growing user base.

We are aware of your product however as it is neither GPL or free I cant see how we could contemplate including it into the core. If that was to change however...

Brian

[mrabear]

Originally Posted by brianteeman

We are aware of your product however as it is neither GPL or free I cant see how we could contemplate including it into the core. If that was to change however...

MOSMedia Lite was released free of charge, although it is not currently GPL'd. I think there is precedent for including non-GPL code in Mambo, so I am sure we could work out a licensing scheme that works for both of us. If including external products is to be viable for future releases though, there will have to be standards that look out for the interests of all parties involved.

Some concerns that would be addressed in such a standard would be forking protocols, creative ownership, and IP rights. I understand that developers and project owners would give up some freedom when integrating to the core distribution, but I think it important to still allow them the ability to freely develop their code and continue to move it in the direction they see fit. Remember that they have already built an excellent Mambo extension before becoming 'core', so they should not be hampered going forward.